Wednesday, April 2, 2008

Make Money Online - Who Do You Trust?

Do you Trust Caroline Middlebrook?

The "make money online" niche is probably the most distrusted and vilified niche on the net. And for good reason. Everyone has spent money foolishly on one gimmick or another in pursuit of making money online themselves. People are convinced that this "gadget" or that "widget" will be the answer only to find out that it makes money alright - but unfortunately, only for the person who sold them on it. We all know this scenario.

I have long had issues with people who build up trust and then use that trust to take advantage of others. This "Make Money" niche is full of such people. Some are outright blatant about using the trust their readers have in them in order to take their money. Yes - John Chow is the king of this breed. He provides little value but is entertaining and this seems to be enough to fool his readership into trusting him. He is a snake oil salesman and these type of people have been taking money off of suckers since the first coin was minted. They always will. I have little sympathy for his victims as you need to go to great lengths to allow yourself to be duped by people like Chow. Anyone who works that hard at ignoring the obvious deserves what they get.

On the other hand there are those who are genuinely sincere and likable and sincerely believe in what they are doing. Caroline Middlebrook is a prime example. I am bringing her up in response to a Vlog post Vic made today. You can watch it here;

Be warned that it contains some very strong language.

Caroline Middlebrook

Yes, Vic is upset and some of you may think that he is a little hard on Caroline.

The question is... is he right?

Only you can make that call but I do have a few points to make about this issue myself.

Regardless of how much you may like Caroline's personality, her writing style, her sincerity or her perceived success there is the nagging problem that she has become just another blogger taking advantage of her readers. She readily admits that she makes little money, knows nothing of SEO and basically sells stuff to her readership. She admits this and one would give her credit for her honesty.

The problem is that she sells stuff to her readers giving them the illusion that the stuff will make them money or at the very least that it's stuff they need if they want to be like her.

She promotes ebooks on her site that claim to teach you how to make money with adsense, SEO and various other things. This is no different than thousands of other sites online. The problem is that she doesn't make money with adsense or SEO and she doesn't have organic traffic. She has 1800 readers and has no problem selling stuff to them that hasn't worked for her. She has adopted the John Chow belief that it is OK to build up your readers trust and then sell them crap. This bugs me a lot.

The thing is I don't think she has even given this a thought. The assumption is that this is WHAT you do to make money online. It's what everyone else does so it MUST be ok.

It isn't ok. It's why the make money online niche is looked on with disdain. This is why Vic gets so upset. This is why I get upset. We have been trying to teach people the real methods of creating an online income without selling you a bunch of crap.

If you don't make money online then you have no business telling others how to make money online.

If you don't make money with adsense then don't sell books telling people how to make money with adsense.

If you don't rank on top of the serp's then don't tell others how to rank on top of the serp's.

If you don't know SEO then don't promote an SEO book.

If you can't do it - don't sell it or tell it.

Do I sell crap online? Absolutely. All the time but I do it elsewhere - not on a blog that I have developed trust from my readers. Do I feel good about selling crap online? No. Will I stop? No - I like the money and they are just numbers - visitors - not real people. I don't know them and I haven't built up trust with them. They are looking for something and I provide it. This is how I justify my own hypocrisy because deep down I know that they are "real people" and not just numbers. I don't take advantage of their trust in me though - they have none as I am just a page on the net offering something they want. For all I know they are happy with the crap I sell. Moreover is selling a dog calendar to someone looking for a dog calendar selling crap? To me it is but maybe not to them.

I promote crap in the sidebar on this blog. This is because I test it on this site using my considerable search traffic as a measuring stick. Is this right? I tell my readers not to buy a thing on here without asking me. Does this make it ok? Probably not but I have convinced myself that anyone looking for a way to make money and finds my site and doesn't bother reading my posts, well then they can click the ads. Good luck to them. They could have found a few answers but decided to try the get rich quick crap instead of spending a few minutes reading. No skin off my nose. Those who do the reading will find out quick enough that I don't sell stuff to my readers.

My readers are my friends - they trust me. I will not betray that trust in order to make a few bucks. I know Vic is the same way. I know Court is the same way.

I wish Caroline was the same way.

If you have readers then I hope you have the same philosophy. We don't need anymore John Chows.

Related Posts

Justin at House Cat Productions Caroline Middlebrook Owned By Vic

BGMacaw's Squawk Box Caroline Middlebrook Conflagration

madWAHM Right, Wrong and Truth - Matters of Perspective

Monika at The Writers Manifesto Lies. Deceit vs. Honesty. Attitude

Rocky John at Blogging Mix Are You Fit for Negative Publicity?

The University Kid at TUK Is The Industries Fastest Growing Blog The Industries Biggest Lie?

87 comments:

Against Caroline Middlebrook said...

Nicely done and well said Griz. I am in absolute agreement with you on this one about Caroline Middlebrook how she portrays this honest front to pimp her ethics, er um, get money from her readership for something that she can't do in the first place. Caroline Middlebrook is open and honest to a point to tell you specifically that she doesn't know what she's doing and shows you the numbers to prove it and that it's basically only numbers telling other people to buy stuff that Caroline Middlebrook can't do in the first place. She's a hack. Maybe Caroline Middlebrook should've stuck with MMORPG instead of internet marketing.

Thanks for what you do man.
Chris

Grizzly Brears said...

Well said Chris. I see you are determined to have Vic rank well for the term. To bad this is no-follow. lol. (I gave him a good link in the post though)

Dinheiro said...

great post as allways, grizzly. I hate this kind of persons, i was ripped off by similiar persons in the past, but i learned my lesson (i hope). What they do it's like taking the food from a mouth of a child. It's shamless and they diserve punishment!

BudgetCents said...

Great Post. Someone should start a blog that reviews all the "Make Money Online" bloggers and whether or not they are legit, I would read it!

Markk said...

You're talking sense here, Grizz. Although Caroline and JChow are on the same ticket - MMO, I think she's too naive going about this business and that's her problem. No doubt she writes well enough and gained her 1800 subscribers thanks to some well-received posts that got over her head. Sadly, this kind of nonsense will continue when some bloggers still don't get it.

Grizzly Brears said...

Dinheiro,

You and me both. If I go to a one page sales page I know they are trying to sell me something but I don't trust them - I just take a chance. If Vic tells me to buy something I would just because I trust him. If it turns out to be crap I would be pretty pissed off. People who make money off of others trust are the lowest in my books.

Now have I mentioned a sure fire ebook I have... lol.

Grizzly Brears said...

Budget,

I think Vic already has...

Let's see so far he has taken on Brian Clarke, Yaro, John Chow, Caroline and of course Darrin of Problogger although they came to see eye to eye in the end.

Grizzly Brears said...

Markk,

I agree - she is naive - a total noob who is likable and can communicate well. It is a shame that she got led down the wrong path right from the get go. I know she likes Court and can only hope she learns from him and changes direction. I do feel for Court though - he won't want to get in the middle of this. He's a class act and maybe his tact is what is needed to prod her away from the scammers but I wouldn't blame him for taking the 5th on this.

Frank C said...

What tickles me right now is that a few of her defenders who've shown up on Vic's blog have declined to post their blog URL.

As I mentioned, the whole Chow/Yaro method reminds me a lot of how MLM's operate, particularly some of the big names. It's too bad that she's swallowed that idea whole.

Grizzly Brears said...

Frank,

I guess I can't blame them for hiding - would you want Vic coming after you? Ha. Not to mention our little community doesn't waste time mincing words. A little intimidating I would think. Not to worry I'm sure they will rally around her on her site.

I see your point on MLM's - a few on the top do well and convince those below that they can achieve the same results. And we all know how well this turns out...

John84 said...

"I will not betray that trust in order to make a few bucks. I know Vic is the same way. I know Court is the same way."

...and I, for one, would like to thank you dearly for this. I wasted a good couple years of my life reading rehashed bullshit from dozens of "make money online bloggers". And then, 3 months ago, I had the good fortune to find you, vic, and court. I have seen more results in these past 3 months than in those 2 prior years. Thanks again for doing what you do.

Grizzly Brears said...

John,

You are more than welcome. I pissed away a lot of money learning the ropes and wished I had found a Vic or Court when I started. This is why I want everyone to know about them.

Thanks for those remarks - makes it all worth while.

Investing for beginners said...

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is where is the personal responsibility of the people buying the products?

If you are buying something from someone who admits they know nothing about making money, isn't that a questionable decision on your part which does not bode well for future success?

Also, as for John Chow, the guy amazes me. He is known as evil but people still sign up under him? WTF? And yeah, I bought a page from Million Dollar Wiki but I blame myself for that. His blog is absolutely useless and filled with guest blogs. Talk about having it easy. Unbelievable. You really have to question the sheep...

DennisJr said...

Grizz,
When I listen to Vics videos and your take on helping people making money online I really do feel fortunate for running into your blog.

Just think, I just decided in Nov/December that I wanted to make money online. Fortunately I can usually see through Bullshit pretty quickly. I don't know who john Cow is or who John Chow is or even who Darren is. I have never read one of their blogs.
I really do feel bad for the people that can't see through the BS. If Caroline is true to herself she will see through Vic's rants. I have received a tongue lashing from Vic. However, I know he has allot to offer and he believes in what he says and there is truth in Vics rants. Even your previous "scourge" posts tells it like it is and really pushed me to be more active at working on building niches.


Thanks,

BTW, those changes I made to my blog, I didn't receive a single visitor 200 day. However, I got the ads I wanted..LMAO...it's a learning experience.

Grizzly Brears said...

Investing,

That's a fair comment and something that puzzles me daily.

How do charlatan's take people for a ride day after day and have been since the beginning of time? I can only surmise that what is so obvious to me is not to others. Different people have different needs and some need to be led and are willing to accept the leadership of anyone who hits the right chord.

Telling someone you know nothing about making money online and then suggesting they try "this" because you have tried it just might be the right chord for some. You come across as so honest that others think it must be ok or you wouldn't have suggested it.

As for John Chow - I'm as baffled as you are. Then again I don't understand why most of the world runs on emotion and not logic. I guess logic would be too boring - remember peace and serenity sounds good but would be awful dull.

I digress... as to questioning the sheep - I do it daily and I suppose that's why Vic and I are trying to get their attention by questioning the people they follow.

Excellent point raised and it would probably require a thesis to get to the heart of the matter, if at all.

yc said...

A lot of the people who defend these scammers and keep buying products off them really just want to be like them - scamming others to make money. They believe it is the right way to go. I can't blame them for thinking that way cos when I started, I thought it was the best way as well until I realised I could not face myself in the mirror and saying that I got rich scamming people who trust me.

Now the methods that Grizz, Vic and Court teach are not easy. To me and a lot of you, it seems easy now and it is just a lot of tedious hard work and patience, especially if you do not have money to spend in the beginning. But many people who come online to learn how to make money find it hard to understand as well what they are talking about - some because they simply are not technically inclined, some who simply refuse to allow their brains to learn and are lazy. So scamming others by being nice and using pretty semantics can be the simple way out.

Now maybe if I made as much money on Adsense as Grizz I could then write an ebook on how to do it and the three musketeers could help promote it for me. heheh

Grizzly Brears said...

Dennis,

Thanks for that and I kinda figured you would get the ads but lose the traffic. So you can probably figure out the next step - go back and try and find the happy medium between those keywords. Tweak each one a little - position and boldness - and wait and see - then tweak some more.

You are right - it's how you learn and I bet you see how post titles and keywords can be manipulated now. It's just a matter of getting the right results now that you see it works. Get back to it...

Thanks again Dennis.

Grizzly Brears said...

YC,

You are right and that's why I mentioned that people just assume that scamming others is the way to make money online - it's all they have seen from the likes of Chow and company. However just because that's what everyone does it doesn't make it right. Just normal. And that's too bad.

Hey, if you write the ebook I'll be happy to promote it but you wouldn't want my help - the book would have to be for free.

There is a reason I don't have one.

This is my view on ebooks that claim to make you money - they are full of shit. Anyone actually making money with something doesn't need or want to write an ebook much less sell it. Hence - I don't have an ebook on adsense and I don't mind telling people how I do it on this blog for free. There is plenty of room for all of us... after all most of the would be IMers are busy trying to get RSS subscribers which just makes life easier for the rest of us.

Thanks YC

I love Lego said...

no idea who she is, and don't want to.
I trust this blog not because I just follow the herd but because what you say really makes sense to me and it relates to blogspot blogs as well. keep up the good work Griz.

Are there links for vic and court that John has mentioned.
Can't wait for the forum, Griz.

- Coaster

Grizzly Brears said...

Thanks Coaster,

You can find links for both Court and Vic in the sidebar under "I Recommend..."

Just hover over the description.

Costa said...

Well said Grizz,

The sad thing is blogs like this keeps popping up every day and I get really pissed that sometimes i just tell them off bluntly in their comments. Then I get called an arsehole for trying to be a busybody trying to tell others what to blog and what not to blog. LMAO!!!

Sometimes I just wish I had 30% of Vic's arrogance.

Monika Mundell said...

It is amazing how many noobies get sucked into other noobie blogs and led down the wrong track. I commend you for being the "balancer" stating it like it is without agro and keeping factual.

While Vic is entertainment pure (and totally right as I might add) you are the voice of reason Griz.

The only reason Caroline Middlebrook has the status she has is because people like Yaro and Darren blogged about her in the first place. All this came into place from a commenting strategy that in some eyes might be questionable anyway looking like a sucking up notion.

In the end, Caroline Middlebrook does write well and she does come across as being nice, but she went about it totally the wrong way.

I just hope that her early fame didn't get to her head and that she will actually learn from the real people how to make money online.

Venkat said...

Griz, you always made me read and say yes yes and yes. I don't know about John Chow because I dint like his face (photo), but I believe these people are just fulfilling the needs of the people who want to be cheated, the funny part is most of them don't known that they are being cheated.

Terry said...

When I first came back to the online world of making money after a 10 year break, things were very different.

In 1996 I was selling hypnotherapy cassettes on my home-built free hosted website and while I didn't exactly make a killing, I was providing a product for people who wanted it. That is the difference between honest business and scamming, which is selling stuff to people they don't really need, but convincing them they do.

Well, that old model didn't work for me this time around because I didn't realize how tough the competition had gotten for that niche, so I had to find other avenues of income.

Because I was technically a noob, I didn't know what was what and found lots of scams that I was savvy enough to manage to avoid. That and the fact that I'm a cheap bastard meant there was no way I would shell out cash for anything unless it could be proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that it would do what it said on the box!

It also meant that I had no frame of reference for what was the right way to go. I only had instinct which was not that great - I managed to screw up mu adsense account within two months of getting it, and my first few websites had crap domain names that were useless for SEO (I had no idea WTF SEO was either!)

I put up a page on one site promoting some clickbank ebooks on how to make money that everyone else seemed to be promoting. Bad call - not only did I not make any sales, but some people started telling me that I should only be promoting stuff that I believed in.

Well, one of those people was not Griz, (bet you thought I was gonna say it was LMAO!!!) but a guy called Steven Wagenheim. If you are a member of Warriors, or WhyDoWork forums, you'll know him as Swagen.

I got his massive ebook "My Secret Articles" as a promo for doing a review in return (no free lunches) and it set me onto a more realistic path.

Steve only tells you something works if he's tried it himself and it works.

He's one of the good guys, although his sales methods are different to Griz, Vic and Court. Different, but they work. It means selling stuff to trusted followers, but he won't sell crap to make a buck.

Why am I telling all of this?

Because I could so easily have been drawn into the same mode of thinking as Caroline Middlebrook had I been taken in by the same shysters that she obviously has.

I was lucky to have met Steve in the nick of time, as he taught me that honesty really is the best policy and only to sell stuff (to people who trust me) that works. Or at least warn them if something is crap.

Now, its still morning here and my coffe hasn't kicked in yet, so its off to build some more eBay sites and re-open the doors to my forum...

I love Ice Cream said...

umm, who is X in this story?
http://www.mcgrath.ca/2008/03/30/court-vic-griz-x-are-full-of/

- Coaster

aravind said...

Hi Griz,
yet another great post form, I completely acccept with u........when one doesn't know how to make money then how can he suggest others about that.....
I sent u some articles on indian premier league to ur email i think u got them ..........

Justin B said...

Nice post Grizz

I finally got around to reinstalling my feed reader (HD crash). Just subscribed to your feed and saw this post.

And lol, to my surprise you linked to my site =)

Grizzly Brears said...

Costa,

I joined entrecard in order to conduct a few experiments regarding ctr and needless to say there are more "make money online" blogs on the system than anything else save "personal diaries". Of the nearly 500 MMO blogs there aren't more than a handful that aren't noobs talking about how wonderful John Chow is and promoting the same kind of crap. Like you I tried setting a few straight but gave up after realizing that these people need to waste 6 months getting nowhere before they start asking themselves what is wrong. And they will...

Grizzly Brears said...

Monika,

Caroline sucking up... you think? She has worked the 45n5 list pretty good - I notice that she has Court in her sites at the moment. I guess she plans on working the whole list top to bottom. Brilliant - not.

Twitter, stumbleupon et al, she hasn't a clue about real traffic and concentrates on RSS readers. Little wonder she made a whopping $30 with adsense. What little money she has made has come from selling a crappy hosting service to her noob readers - not something that she will be proud of in the long run. Not something her noob readers will be happy about when they wake up.

In the end Monika she is a spammer and her whole marketing concept is based on things the rest of us learned to stay away from long ago.

Hope all is well with you - seems I see your work all over the place these days - well done!

Grizzly Brears said...

Venkat,

The online crowd isn't much different than the real world crowd. People want to be seen with the "in" crowd and embarrass themselves to do it. How many times have you come across a blog that has a blogroll filled with the A-list sites. It's sad and pitiful - they may as well post a big sign on their blog proclaiming "I'm a total noob and I have no dignity - please notice me".

Grizzly Brears said...

Terry,

Alright - finally a post. LOL. You had been slacking and making me do all the work. Love it.

I'm just about ready with my stuff - got a little sidetracked yesterday thanks to Vic. I will be dropping in later today to get familiar with the forum.

Talk soon.

Grizzly Brears said...

Coaster,

I believe X is a reference to himself...

It was a clever post - made me laugh.

Grizzly Brears said...

Aravind,

Got them and have begun posting.

Grizzly Brears said...

Hey Justin,

The links worked - Vic is number 2 for her name. Thanks for the sub.

splork said...

That's a good post, Griz. I decided long ago that I was not going to BS anybody about what I was doing on my blog. I've had quite a few guberus tell me that I'm going about my business the wrong way. You see, I refuse to capture emails (among other guberu practices). I know for a fact it is the way to big riches in this business. But I have nothing to say to subscribers that can't be read on my blog or my other sites. The only reason (it seems) to have an email list is to pimp your readership products. I am not going to suggest anyone buy a thing unless I bought it first AND liked it. I can't be running around buying and trying all this IM crap just so I can email about it. And I'm not going to pimp it if I don't like it. Maybe one day I'll have something to say that will need to be dropped in a newsletter. But I won't do it until I can resolve in my mind that I am not a glorified spammer.

Then it's suggested that I do an ebook. Why? I don't know that much and what I do I'm pretty open about on the blog. I don't know anything new so why write an ebook regurgitating what I learned elsewhere? I definitely could and a few of the 11 people who read my blog might actually buy it because they somewhat trust me. But that is no way to be.

I rambled. I'm just glad there are some good people, like you four horsemen, (you, Court, Frank and Vic) as I refer to the collective.

living off dividends & passive income said...

nice post.

I had a similar problem 2 years ago. I was facilitating californians buy real estate in SLC but then I had to stop since I felt the market was over-priced.

I don't make my living as an agent (i only enhanced it!) so it wasn't a question of starvation for me, but I could've easily milked it for another year.

I really hate it when people have absolutely no morals, but on the flip side, you sir go above and beyond ethical behavior. If I was into fishing, i'd fly out to your isolated lodge just to give you the business. Heck, I still might, atleast we can talk about "making money online" ;-)

gotafish said...

wow remind me not to get on the wrong side of you guys :)

Fiar said...

I assume this didn't go through when I tried it earlier. Fortunately, I save it in a txt file.

Caroline Middlebrook is totally from the Yaro Starak school of Internet Marketing. I paid attention to him for a while and I noticed that he really emphasizes the importance of getting people to sign up for mailing lists, and then using the mailing list to sell them affiliate products.

No matter what I do, one thing I will never. ever do is get people to sign up for a mailing list and then send them email after email of affiliate sales pages.

Yaro says to offer people something for free if they sign up. That's the hook. Then it is based on the human nature to be too lazy to unsubscribe.

It's exactly the same technique that time share sales uses. My wife signed up for a "raffle" to win a "free vacation." I know exactly how it works. I told her, it's not a raffle. It's a mailing list. Everybody "wins."

Then they tell you that you need to go pick up your "prize." Then your told that you can't leave at any time, or you forfeit your "prize." Then you sit through a presentation where they tell you how much money you will save by spending a few thousand dollars to buy into their program.

After the presentation, you sit down with a sales person, who trys to get you to buy in.

It's human nature to try to make excuses, rather than just insist you aren't interested. They've anticipated this. They have a payment program. It will only cost $100 per month to have a lifetime of wonderful memories.

If you make it past that, they send you to another sales person who has a better package. Not only does it cost less, it's quite literally a better value. Again, they have a payment plan. Even more affordable this time. Surely you spend as much on coffee, or one night out to dinner. Surely you can sacrifice one night out per month for the amazing memories these vacations will bring you.

Have you suffered enough? Because your not done yet. You could always just forfeit the "prize" but you made it this far. It would seem such a waste to quit now.

One more hurdle. This time, they send you to the closer. The closer is ready to offer you a package of just 3 vacations. It turns out, you're really lucky you kept saying no. This is the best deal of all.

At this point, you've been there 4 hours. (Not an exaggeration) That plays into yor decision not to leave. You didn't come this far to say "screw it" to your "prize."

This sales person makes a seriously hard sales pitch. Is there anyone who can't afford 50 bucks every 6 months. Come on. You'd be crazzy not to do it.

Or maybe you are getting so frustrated, you will do anything to just make them shut up. Uh oh. Did you just hand over your credit card because you just wanted to make the pain go away.

They knew you would.

Trust me. With the exception of those who just walk out, very few people have the resolve to walk out of there without buying anything. And they know it.

That's the Yaro school. That's Caroline Middlebrook.

BTW, those assholes still won't stop calling me to tell me I won a "prize." I know the only way to get off the list is to take time out of my day, during which they will try to sell to me, and insist that I be removed from the list. They'll call again today. I have no doubt in my mind.

Scum.

Fiar said...

Gotafish. Ditto that.

Grizzly Brears said...

Splork,

Wow... up to 11 now. Congrats - you only had 9 readers when I became the 10th. Things are moving up I see!

Like you I couldn't dothe email thing - there are only two products I think are worth buying anyway (The Elite brothers - SEO and Keyword) and people would get tired of me sending the same email over and over. lol

I have a few acquaintances in the "list" biz and they have mentioned that it isn't doing so well anymore - people are tired of the spam and every time they send out a run they cringe as the "unsubscribe" box gets filled faster than the sales sheet. It has run it's course I think.

As far as ebooks are concerned I can't recall the last time I read one that had something useful in it that I didn't already know or couldn't find online for free. They should only be used as a gift and provide people with a quick way to find info - the days of the rich jerk selling millions of copies of a crap book are past as well. One thing about the net - we learn and grow fast. It will be interesting to see where we go from here. Social networks and Video have been the focus most recently but they are starting to wane too. (from a money making perspective)

Strangely enough when I started on the net the best way to make money was SEO and Google and now years later it still is. Fads come and go but the basics remain.

Thanks for your input Splork - the four horseman huh. I was just getting used to YC's Three Musketeers. (Frank will be happy)lol.

Frank C said...

Fiar,

I did some contract programming work for one of those kind of companies a few years ago, helping them fix some problems between their database and autodialer. I was glad I was only in their offices for a few days. It was one of the ugliest places, attitude-wise, I've ever done a contract. All smiles and such to the rubes and cutthroat and nasty behind the scenes.

Grizzly Brears said...

Living off Dividends,

I'm afraid the Lodge is booked solid for fishing but we can always yak about making money.

Want to hear something ironic - I'm no more ethical than any other decent person - I am just not that interested in money. Yup - I know that sounds funny but it's true. I know how to make it and realize it's necessary to live but I am not driven by it at all. I bought a fishing Lodge in the wilderness because I wanted to get away from the fast lane. I wanted a quiet simple life, stress free and the ability to do what I want when I want. I have it and I don't need much money to maintain it.

This whole internet biz started as nothing more than a challenge - a chess match of sorts - my brain against all the other brains out there trying to succeed. The fact that I have a make money blog is just because it was one of the hardest niches to get on page 1 for and I wanted to prove I could do it.

It's unfortunate if people think I am actually "all about making money" because I really am the least interested person I know of when it comes to money. Spend 15 years living on an island in the wilderness and it changes your perspective on what you really need to be happy. One of life's little ironies - I could have just about anything I want and yet I don't want anything other than what I already have.

I am far more interested in getting a hole in one than making more money online. To the chagrin of my accountant and family members I have a habit of giving a lot of it away. I like helping people out - it makes me feel good and if I charged people then the only reason I do this would be lost. Ethics? Nope. Just my take on karma and my little place in the universe.

Thanks for the compliment but I'm no saint - I just have different priorities.

Grizzly Brears said...

Gotafish,

You of all people should watch out cuz with a name like yours remember - I know how to catch fish!

and cook em' for dinner... lol

Grizzly Brears said...

Fiar,

I totally agree. Just one question - where were you when I got sucked into buying a time share at a golf resort???

Wish I had read your comment before I walked into that!

Thanks Fiar - hope all is good aside from the scum.

Monika Mundell said...

Hell yes Griz, she sucks up big time. But hey, if she can sleep at night, then good for her. That reminds me, there is another lady circling the blogosphere who does the same but in the writing circle.

Hmmm... I wonder how it feels to stick your tongue up somebody's ass? LMAO. Are you shocked? Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyway, thanks for asking I'm doing very well and am happy and excited about my business. Finally getting up every day is even more fun than ever. :-)

Venkat said...

Hi Griz,

What is "Micro Niche Finder?"....I mean your opinion if you know about this software.

DennisJr said...

Grizz,
I liked your take about the money part & being happy. It's important to realize what makes you happy. Everyone seems to be telling stories recently.
Here's a snippet of mine.

My father retired at the age of 50 bought a nice home on Lake Huron and expected people (sister neices & nephews etc) to come see him and ride on his boat and swim at his beach. However, he spent most of his life in the pursuit of money that he isolated everyone. Between realestate deals, girlfriends and his job he never had time.

It was pretty sad when I had to explain to him that he couldn't expect to isolate everyone and then have everyone all of sudden start making time in their life for him.

Hence, my only pursuit of MMO is to release some of bonds of debt to allow me to spend more time with my family. Go on more vactions etc. The interesting part is I told my dad all my life I wasn't interested in making a bunch of money.

I told him years ago when I was ready to make money, I would. Since I have always accomplished everything I have ever wanted to accomplish he is watching with interest after I told him I was ready to make money online.
My father is a good man, he raised me.. He just got caught up in making money. Of couse, If I grew up like he did I might have a different view on money.

Anonymous said...

Check out Caroline's last post .. she has answers for everything.. that lady no doubt has talent but put in a wrong manner ..

Wish I had the same writing talent and I would have put to good use and minted a lot of money >>>>

madWAHM said...

Let me first say, I am unfamiliar with both Vic's and Caroline's blog. Anyways...

Vic's video oozed the intense irritation, frustration, anger, resentment, envy and jealousy of his mind-made sense of self - his ego.

Perhaps what disturbs us most in/about others are those things we refuse to see and address within ourselves?

Vic's relentless need to be right and superior to others (Caroline) caused him to create a conflict with this Caroline.

Isn't it all simply a matter of perspective anyway? Vic proclaims he only cares about doing what's right and telling the truth, but only according to Vic's perspective.

If right and truth are truly what Vic is all about then I'm wondering what is right and true about resorting to belittling and bashing another?

When we criticize anyone, regardless of the reason, aren't we really doing it because we're trying to defend a mental-position that we believe in? Again, isn't this a matter of perspective?

After I looked a bit closer at these two blogs I noticed the stats:

Caroline's blog:
Google PR - 5
Alexa Rank - 26,554
RSS Readers - 1,876

Vic's blog:
Google PR - 4
Alexa Rank - 40,696
RSS Readers - 1,144

Is Vic really worried about Caroline's readers being scammed and manipulated by her? If his intentions are so honorable then why not allow her readers their own minds and perspectives?

Are you not scammed or manipulated only if that is your perspective?

What may be valuable to one may be worthless to another.

Perhaps we ought to realize and accept that our views and beliefs are only our individual mind-made perspectives.

Dinheiro said...

madWAHM if like to be scammed, just go ahead. 90% of the products like the ones that caroline sells are pure (and everyone forgive me for this word) SHIT. If people likes that, by all means, go ahead, it's your money!!

I was for some time one of the idiots that believed in persons like caroline and their products. IDIOT, IDIOT, IDIOT!
Since Vic, Court and Grizzly blogs, i could finally understand much more things, and i'm finally doing things right and seeing some success and not WASTING MY MONEY, because it's all FREE!!

Thanks grizzly
Thanks Vic
Thanks Court

Frank C said...

madWAHM -

All the moral relativism in the world won't change these hard facts.

1. She openly associates herself with a model of Internet Marketing that takes advantage of people by gaining their trust and tricking them into buying products of dubious value.

2. She has been given good advice to not follow this path by many people who were a lot nicer to her than Vic was and who make more money than she does online. Yet she continues to follow it.

3. She doesn't understand the difference between getting social referral traffic, which doesn't make money, and building organic search traffic, which does. Thus she steers people who want to make money online in an unprofitable direction.

Thus the problem is that Caroline is either being a scammer or an incredibly naive person.

I'm inclined to believe that she is somewhat naive and sort of stubborn, inflexible, person. She has good writing skills and online social skills, probably from her MMORPG experiences. She has, almost by accident, parleyed these skills into a modicum of Internet fame. She is discovering though that "one who rides the tiger will also find it difficult to dismount."

failureblogger said...

so are you saying that I cant earn money online because I don't know how to?

How am I supposed to make money.

Well you have your oppinnion and I have mine.

I will continue to sell items about making money online even though I don't know how!

Whats wrong with recommending a product to someone?

But that's my oppinion.

other than this your always right.

Anonymous said...

"She has good writing skills and online social skills, probably from her MMORPG experiences. "

frankc....LMAO..

damn...I gotta get into MMORPG...no wonder I don't have any readers.

mambo

Victor Franqui said...

failureblogger has been trolling my comments also I am this close of just Askimet his email.

Divinyl said...

Hey there Griz,

I have been holding off on commenting here, as I kind of wanted to sit and watch the debate unfold! I am surprised that there hasn't been even more to-ing and fro-ing!

My take on Caroline Middlebrook:

I don't know a lot about her, and I don't read her site (although nor have I ever bought anything via anyone's blog...sorry petal, but you knew that anyway!), but I did read her post 'Do you have a blog commenting strategy?' several months ago.

The comments are still going on that one and people really seem to have bought into it. Personally I don't think I have EVER seen anything more contrived!

I leave a comment when I have something to say, NOT because I want to leave my trail everywhere, NOT because someone has been a 'top commenter' on my blog, NOT with any sub-agenda! This woman makes charts and spreadsheets and so on...and you say she's still not making much money?

A lot of effort for nothing then...and if she's claiming to her readers that she knows how to help them make money...a total scheister! (Is that how you spell it?).

You, Griz, offer great advice, are helpful, are honest (now you've buried the black hat! Haha)...your blogs are informative and a pleasure to read, and it baffles me how you understand this whole online world so well!

I'm not saying these things to suck up...I don't have any need to do that, but credit where credit's due. People like me must frustrate you...I don't actually put into practice a lot of what I read here, but it still helps to know it and understand things a lot better.

Oh, and apologies for saying you were in the back end of nowehere...I didn't realise how offensive I had been ;o) x

Grizzly Brears said...

I thought I would sit back and take in everyone's views while getting some other stuff done. I'll be throwing up a new post today so this would be a good time to wade in here again.

I am surprised that there have been so few opposing viewpoints and in truth I welcome them as we all learn when people have opinions different than our own. If people have been hesitant because they feel intimidated - please don't be. I love a good debate and believe we can discuss things intelligently without succumbing to emotional diatribes.

Onward...

Grizzly Brears said...

Monika,

You can't shock me with a few words... you are still one of the kindest people I've met online and go to great lengths to help others out. You have worked hard, made the right decisions and it's great seeing how this is paying off for you.

Grizzly Brears said...

Venkat,

I'm afraid I am not familiar with Micro Niche Finder other than I have heard the name. If anyone else has some knowledge of this please feel free to share...

Grizzly Brears said...

Dennis,

Thanks for sharing and I know far too many people like your father - they have put the good things in life aside in pursuit of making money now hoping to enjoy it later. A lot of them end up with all the toys but no one to share them with.

(Personally I run out of room on the island before I can get the Ferrari out of first gear...)

Grizzly Brears said...

Anonymous,

I read her latest post - not much about anything. I don't think she really understands what it is that we object too.

Fiar said...

Caroline Middlebrook says she doesn't make any money from Twitter or StumbleUpon, yet she's releasing an ebook on StumbleUpon.

So, let's review. She writes an ebook on making niche sites, which she admits she has failed to succeed with herself. Now she's writing on on SU, which also makes her no money.

She's like the queen of writing ebooks about things she lacks the ability to actually DO in order to make money.

She must not have realized that the saying, "those who can - do, and those who cant - teach" was a joke.

She says Internet Marketing isn't about making money, yet it's her full time job. She quit her paying gig to do IM.

Holy crap! My advice to her would be don't quit your day job, but she already did.

Then her stupid acolytes tell her how inspiring she is. WTF?

What is inspiring about being clueless?

Grizzly Brears said...

madWAHM,

From the larger metaphysical perspective you are correct - the only thing that exists in this world is our own perspective. I love a good philosophical debate and suspect you do too.

However, if we bring this back down to the (granted mundane) world of the here and now and specifically in regards to the horrid nuts and bolts of the "make money online" niche then one perspective I have is that, until recently, the only view people have had has been the "Chow/Yaro - A list" view on how to make money online.

There has been no voice out there offering an opposing opinion and more importantly a voice to explain why the A-list system isn't working for anyone else. And it isn't... There have been no new members to this elite squad and if I may I will explain why (from my point of view of course)

The A-list make a lot of money. They make this money because they are well known and receive money from others to promote everything and anything online. Their readers believe they make their money "Using" the products they promote and they eagerly buy these products thinking that they will become A-listers themselves. They don't realize that the A-list don't use the products and the money they make only comes from selling or promoting the products. The end result is that the readers fail using the products (or methods) and then resort to trying to sell the same product or method to others in order to make money that way. (After all - most end up thinking that if the A-list can sell it, why can't I)

This has been the model used for the "make money online" niche now for some time and as I said there has been no one telling people that this system is closed and won't work for the people following the A-listers. You have to already be well known to pull this off and what's more you have to be willing to keep promoting useless junk to others who don't know any better.

Over the last year several people, including me, have begun voicing our objections to this whole sham. Ironically most of us are people who have been making money online a different way - some using black hat methods - and have come out out of the shadows to do things legitimately and at the same time point out to all that will listen that the A-List method doesn't work and people are simply wasting their time and money following that path.

If people want to continue down that road - fine - but at least now they do have another perspective that they can look at if they choose. What is more - and I think this is important - those of us preaching this perspective are not making money from it - we are making money from our methods and we can give away the info for free because telling others how to do what we do doesn't effect our incomes whatsoever. The internet is huge and there is room for everyone currently exploring the idea of making an income on it.

You don't like Vic's method of getting the word out and I completely respect that about you. It is definitely not for everyone. However I have to mention that I have been quietly talking about the sham that this niche is for quite some time with little effect. Since Vic showed up, people are starting to pay attention. This brings us back to your point - do the ends justify the means?

I can see both sides of this and rather than look at it from the greater perspective as you do I look at it from the point of view that Vic will save a lot of people from wasting a great deal of time and money chasing a dream that they won't achieve.

As for your point of view - if we step back and look at the world through metaphysical glasses then I have no argument as I share the same philosophical view as I believe you do. I just ask that you forgive me for limiting my beliefs in this instance to a particular situation in a particular niche on the internet. Does this make me right? As you said - this can only have a subjective answer. Is this effective? I think yes as there is now a second point of view available to everyone whereas there was only one view not that long ago. People can make their own decisions but at least they now have a chance to make a decision.

Thank you so much for the comment - I do appreciate your concern and certainly can't criticize you for it.

Grizzly Brears said...

Dinheiro,

You're a good friend and I appreciate the support but I don't think madWAHM was encouraging people to be scammed or to follow Caroline's path.

Grizzly Brears said...

Frank,

I think you summed up the situation well. She is naive and until now she hasn't had any reason to question her approach. If she is stubborn it may just be a common reaction to being criticized for something she never thought was wrong. She is a bright woman though so in time some of the criticism may sink in and who knows...

DennisJr said...

I will weigh in on the Caroline thing one more time. As I said earlier I just decided I want to make money online. I have not spent hundreds of dollars in this pursuit. However, I am the kind of person by nature that goes against the pack or atleast questions peoples motives.

I was interested to see how many people would jump on the Caroline bandwagon. She has never hurt me so I felt no need to write a post and optimize her name to make her look bad..

The fact is I have downloaded her ebook. The person that actually prompted me to was Vic. Yes, Vic. He said the ebook about wordpress should have been a technical document and she had some good things in there. He said this in a post before video

Being new to wordpress I used her document. I benefited from Caroline without spending a dollar.

There is a certain responsibility of the buyer when purchasing products. I have bought into the teachings of Griz, Vic & Court. However, being honest, when everyone started writing bad things about Caroline red flags went up for me. So, this is my first red flag from Griz & Vic. More for Griz than Vic

I was happy to see that Court did not follow suit. I am not going to slam Caroline because... she makes more money than I do. I am sure whoever Caroline learned from she believed in as I believe in Griz, Vic & Court. In the end as Vic always points out our views are formed by our experiences. I have not been burned over and over. So, I don't have the passion that Grizz & Vic have about people taking advantage of people online.

In the end for everyone that wrote bad things about Caroline I hope it was because it's based on their experience and not because they want to jump on the bandwagon.

Here's my connect to Vic & Grizz post. When I was young in High school I was fairly popular. I was also a good fighter. I woud watch bullies pick on people and would step in on more than one occation got called out and fought somone else's battle. Although grizz's post sent up a red flag. I chose to believe these are his intentions. However, because of his post I had to make my first "mental note" of buyer beware. If you ask what I am buying. I buy into what he teaches. Although this is my first "mental note" I could give a 100 reasons to continue to buy into his teachings. I the word of forrest gump.. "thats all I have to say about that"

Grizzly Brears said...

Failure...

I have read your blog and as a teenager you have plenty of time to figure all this out. When I was your age every body over 20 was an idiot and you will find that as you get older all the idiots suddenly get smarter.

Good luck in your search.

Grizzly Brears said...

Mambo,

Let me know if it works. Lol

Grizzly Brears said...

Vic,

Go easy on him Vic - he's just a kid.

It just wouldn't be a fair fight...

Grizzly Brears said...

Hi Di,

You know why I love your blog?

Cuz it has absolutely nothing to do with making money online and you make me laugh.

I took no offense at you calling me a backwoods redneck - you are simply jealous as Jolly Old England has no place left to consider "nowhere". I believe the whole place would fit nicely into Lake Winnipeg - probably couldn't get the Ferrari out of second gear before hitting water. :-)

DennisJr said...

congrads Grizz on going over 700 feedrreaders. It's been interesting to watch you move over 400 postions since I started reading your blog.

Grizzly Brears said...

Fiar,

It's hard not to read her blog without seeing the irony.

She has said that she firmly believes that selling her knowledge is the way to proceed and is a legitimate way to make money. Maybe it is - but her knowledge consists of how not to make money online... not sure there is a big market for that.

Grizzly Brears said...

Dennis,

I you wonder what my motives are you may have missed some of my comments in the past.

It is my intention to build up the trust of thousands of readers and then one day hit you all up with an ebook that contains nothing but my collection of comments from this blog. By the time you have all figured out you have been taken I will be living the life of luxury on a beach in Mexico.

Congrats btw - your comment just made the first page! Well done.

Until then however I will continue to tell you all how I make money using different techniques and encourage you all to make your own decisions and not buy anything you don't need. I realize how suspicious this is but can't think of another way to do it...

As for the feedreader numbers I am reminded daily of how it is killing my ctr (not really and I will be posting about this) and that I leave it up there in order to draw in some big spending advertisers. It has worked in that area but all the requests have been for totally crap products that I can't bring myself to put on here. I guess until Brad Callen wants to pay me to advertise SEO Elite I won't be selling much ad space. Bummer but there has to be at least a few other decent things to sell in this market. Of course if I didn't have readers I would be hawking every piece of crap that comes along as I am wasting all the search traffic pouring daily into this site. I had over 4800 Google visitors yesterday - that's a lot of money passing thru. Oh well...

Thanks Dennis :-)

DennisJr said...

Grizz, I was really reluctant to write that comment. However, it went through my mind so I decided to share my thoughts.Especially, when you thought there would be more debate.

I have no proof to believe your motives of helping people are anything other than your pure interest of helping people even though it is at the expense of your wallet.

If I didn't believe your intentions were true I would not have sent you my sites for review.

Your advice has made me money. You assitance has helped me overcome some minor barriers.

Grizz,
If I have offended you I am sorry. Just know.. if I didn't beleive in you I would not have wasted my time in commenting. Your blog is the only blog I reguarly comment on.

BTW.. I made more changes to my niche and people started comming back. Yet, I am back to the ads issue. However, I think I might have solved the issue. This just another example of how I follow your advice.

Grizzly Brears said...

Dennis,

I wasn't offended by your comment in the least. My reply was totally tongue in cheek - guess it didn't come off as I wanted it too. One advantage Vic has with the Vlog is that you can convey humor much better with Video than writing. Sorry about that. I really do value people's opinions - otherwise I'm just talking to myself.

Cheers

DennisJr said...

Good deal my friend. I thought it was humor..but had to make sure. It is beautiful out..60's( heat wave) time to fire up the John Deere and do some yard work. Cheers..

aravind said...

Hi Griz,
whassup man.......Any plans for the week end............
On an average how many days does it take for an adsense account to get approved.........

Grizzly Brears said...

Ok, now I am offended Dennis...

The 60's!!! It's bloody 20 below zero Celsius here (in April???? WTF) and feels like the second or is that 6th coming of the ice age! I'm firing up the John Deere too but it has a snowblower attached to the front - not the kind of yard work you are referring too. May your skin get red and peel like an onion.

Global warming my ass!

Grizzly Brears said...

Aravind,

You know - it's been a long time since I applied for Adsense and I can't remember how long it took... anyone else?

I don't think it took too long but maybe things have changed since then.

RT Cunningham said...

Great post, Griz. I've been trying to watch Vic's videos, but my DSL connection has been sucking like there's no tomorrow.

Grizzly Brears said...

Thanks RT,

I have the same problems - my satellite bandwidth can't seem to handle the vids well - things seem to bog down quite often and yet at times it downloads fine. A bit perplexing.

gotafish said...

Aravind,
My adsense account was approved same day I applied. I did apply with a domain I had just bought though. Not sure how long it will take if you are using only free domain sites.

failureblogger said...

@ Grizzly

lol
Thanks for the comment!

martinact420 said...

I couldnt agree more!

shane said...

Here's been my experience in life all 41 years of it. What you resist will persist, and what you put energy into becomes more solid. Putting so much energy into the likes of what you dont believe in will just cause that to be much more solid. All this talk about mrs middlebrook really just further entrenches her position and justfies her existance all the more. If people were to just ignore the situation it would probably just go away.

Grizzly Brears said...

Shane,

If I didn't want people to know about Caroline Middlebrook then your advice would be spot on. However I don't want people making her mistakes therefor I can't ignore her - I have to highlight the mistake in order to make the point.

shane said...

And thats what I respect about you. Doing things for the right reasondespite what might or might not come of it

Ex Back said...

Refreshing! Fing refreshing! I for one am NOT buying into these liars anymore!

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